Recorded at the Historic Camelot Theater, Palm Springs, CA on April 14, 2024
TRANSCRIPT
(ROB KOZLOWSKI:) There is no better married couple in movie history.
I mean, people have tried to replicate it and they just can’t.
And a lot of it is just that obviously the writers, Frances Goodrich and Albert Hackett, but the chemistry.
(ALIECE PICKETT:) In your book, Rob, your affection for the characters and for the actors that played “Nick and Nora” is on every page.
>> RK: They’re worth it.
I think, as you probably all saw, this movie is 88 years old, but there’s nothing in it, I mean, there’s a few things in it that probably feel dated, payphones, for one thing.
But their relationship and the affection, I mean, just the small, little moments.
And you can see when they just do those little random kisses that are asides when she tries to get, he suddenly tells them if she wants scrambled eggs.
>> I love that.
Those are just nice little moments that separate this from any other sort of crime drama or crime comment.
>> AP: Now, you were talking about that they started, both of them, Powell and Loy, as screen villains.
And that William Powell had a breakthrough role.
Why don’t you tell us a little about that?
>> RK: William Powell’s breakthrough role, so he was, in silent movies, William Powell was usually a villain.
He was always the heavy.
And so oftentimes in swashbuckling movies, he would be the bad guy.
He was the Basil Rathbone of the silent screen.
And late in the silent era, Paramount Pictures under which he was under contract gave him the breakthrough role of “Philo Vance” in the movie “The Canary Murder Case” (1929).
And he was in three films at Paramount in the early talky days, he played this detective.
And “Philo Vance” is not very well known.
He’s not very well remembered today.
The books were written by a man named S.S. Van Dyne.
And the character of Philo Vance, if you read the books, is insufferably pretentious and annoying.
He’s basically Sherlock Holmes, but nine times more annoying and antisocial.
So that part of it was softened up and it was really the first sort of successful talky detective movies.
They’re not very good from today’s perspective, but they were huge breakthroughs for him and that really turned the tide in terms of him becoming a, once he, after the viable success of those couple of movies, Paramount officially called him a star, and started putting his name above the title.
>> AP: You talk about that 1936 was a monumental year for William Powell.
>> RK: Yes, unquestionably the peak of his career.
William Powell in 1936 appeared in “My Man Godfrey”, which is my favorite superball comedy and definitely one of the top two or three.
He also starred in “The Great Ziegfeld” (1936), the three-hour epic that would win the Best Picture Oscar for that year.
He obviously starred in “After the Thin Man”, and he also starred in “Libeled Lady” (1936), which was also with Myrna Loy and Spencer Tracy and Jean Harlow, which is another brilliant superball comedy.
And then also he was “The Ex-Mrs. Bradford” (1936), which was sort of a “Thin Man” knockoff with Jean Arthur.
He was also nominated for a Best Actor Academy Award for “My Man Godfrey” in 1936.
So it was just hit after hit for Powell.
>> AP: What a year!
>> RK: This represents the peak of his career.
And only several years earlier, he was merely seen as sort of a gentleman hero.
>> AP: That may have been the zenith, but he went on to have so many great diverse roles.
And as you write, he didn’t he didn’t want to be typecast. Roles as diverse as “Life With Father” (1947), all the way through to “Mr.
Roberts” (1955).
What a stellar legacy he leaves.
>> RK: Absolutely. He made films for 33 years and he was always a very solid presence.
You can see that even in his very earliest films back in 1923, the reviews always, he usually stole the picture as the villain.
And he got the reputation as a picture stealer because your eyes gravitated toward him.
And the great thing about both Powell and Lloyd, they got their starts in silent movies, but they were supporting actors, and no one had any preconceived notions about how they were going to be, which kind of messed up a lot of silent movie stars going into talkies.
And yeah, so they were able to make that transition.
>> He personifies the Screwball Comedy detective because he has that drink in his hand, the glint in his eye, the quip on his lips, and everyone else had to follow in his shoes.
Tough, tough act to follow.
But the character of “Nick Charles” is a quintessential Screwball “anti”-hero, because he delights in living off his wife’s money and he frequently tells her that, he reminds her of that.
He’s frustrated, he’s vulnerable, he’s funny and if you compare that to a hero like “Sherlock Holmes”, very different.
>> Yes, and I think “Nick Charles”, part of the appeal of “Nick and Nora” is, when Dashiell Hammett wrote the novel in late 1933 and it was bought by MGM in January of 1934, Prohibition had just been repealed.
You can almost think of “The Thin Man” as sort of like a glorious tribute to drinking.
There was plenty of drinking in movies during Prohibition, but now they could do it, you didn’t have to go to an underground speakeasy.
It’s so much about not only joy of drinking, but the joy of his marriage with “Nora”.
And that’s the thing that’s really integral to screwball and that whole outlook in comedy is the characters.
We talked a lot about the plots of Screwball Comedy, but it’s really about the characters.
They have kind of wacky points of view, but they’re also believable.
If “Nick Charles” did fight crime for 20 years and he met “Nora”, and now he gets to just drink all the time, who wouldn’t like that?
>> AP: There are common Screwball character archetypes you see, the anti-hero in the man, and the woman is self-directed.
She has agency.
Here, “Nora” will not be passive.
She will not be on the sidelines.
She’s going to get out sleuthing with “Nick”.
>> You saw in the moment where he locked the door on her.
She’s very enthusiastic about getting him into cases.
In terms of the way that Screwball works, I mentioned “My Man Godfrey” (1936), which is predominantly about class.
This, “After The Thin Man” (1936), fits the Screwball comedy archetype of plot the most, because of the presence of “Nora’s” family.
All of the codgers snoring at the table.
>> AP: It’s one of the most funny scenes.
>> RK: It’s beautiful and the butler who’s about to fall when he gets the coat on the arm.
That is about class.
We saw in the first “Thin Man”, we saw “Nick’s” world represented.
It was an ingenious move to have the flip side shown.
Now we’re seeing “Nora’s” family, and seeing them made fun of.
That was set up with the scene in the car, where he meets all of the “dirty” people in San Francisco.
Then the woman and the top hat.
(“Nora” says) “You wouldn’t know them Nick, they’re respectable”.
Then we go to her family, which was an ingenious way to follow up.
The hardest part about sequels is to continue a story that’s ended.
Now we get to see “Nora’s” side.
>> AP: With Screwball Comedy, you often have a couple from mismatched socio-economic backgrounds.
Here, you see that.
Other Screwball comedy elements are the eccentric family, which she has; the witty, fast dialogue; fast pace; and the physical comedy.
You see that here.
Myrna Loy does a fantastic job with her interpretation of “Nora”; the way she is able to raise an eyebrow, not her voice.
That is different from other Screwball Comedies.
It’s not as vocal.
She’s still on equal footing with him.
She exchanges quips with him, toe to toe.
However, she does it with her reactions.
And she tells you so much with just the look in her eye and that raised eyebrow.
>> One thing I think is important when it comes to Powell and Loy, they both started as supporting actors.
In that role as supporting actors, you spend a lot of the time in the movie listening.
Both Bill and Myrna listened exceptionally well.
You see that if you study the 14 films they made together.
They’re always listening to each other.
All Myrna needs to do is that little scrunch of the nose, or the raise of an eyebrow.
Maybe my favorite moment in this movie is when “Nick” hits “Dancer” over the head with the phone, and “Nora” looks at the camera and raises her eyebrow and says “See?”.
It’s weird. It’s like the one time, breaking the fourth wall in the movie.
But we’ve developed such a relationship with the characters, we laugh when she says that.
We know that she’s telling us, “Isn’t my husband awesome?”.
>> AP: Speaking of that marriage, you write about it quite a bit in your book and how revolutionary this “screen” marriage was because marriage before that was primarily depicted in a negative light, with the husband being neglectful or abusive, a philanderer; and the wife, a nagging shrew.
Here you have this incredible chemistry.
They adore each other.
They have fun.
They enjoy each other’s company.
>> RK: It remains revolutionary.
How many times have you seen a TV show where, “Will they or won’t they”. And when they do, you start to get bored.
This is supposed to be the end of the story, and we can’t keep our eyes off these two because they’re fun to watch.
It’s fun to watch their repartee.
They are unprecedented, and they have not been matched since.
No one seems to be able to replicate it.
>> It’s not just the Goodrich and Hackett screenplay.
It’s not just “Nick and Nora Charles”, because of their 14 movies together.
They’re exceptional.
There are three standout Screwball comedies I would like to touch on for our audience.
First, “Double Wedding” (1937), then “I Love You Again” (1940), and “Love Crazy” (1941).
Please give us a little primer on those.
>> RK: One thing about the “Thin Man” movies is they’re unique in the sense that they’re “A” movies.
They were big-budget movies, both William Powell and Myrna Loy were top of the pack at MGM, and they were expensive.
Normally you’d see a series like this, four or six a year, low budget, one-hour, one hour 15-minutes.
That couldn’t be done with a “Thin Man”.
Still, MGM wanted to put them in a bunch of movies together.
Even after “The Thin Man” was produced, they started to churn out screenplays for them.
“Double Wedding”, which is probably my, it’s hard to say, there’s no favorite.
It’s a marvelous 1937 film.
Powell plays a rakish bohemian who lives in a trailer.
Myrna Loy is the very tight-laced sister of–. It’s a complicated plot.
I can’t even describe it.
The thing is, of the three movies, “Double Wedding”, “I Love You Again”, and “Love Crazy” are more traditional Screwball Comedy in the sense that our two protagonists are not together at the beginning of the film.
Bill and Myrna created a new kind of chemistry where Myrna was the cynical one, the one who was tight-laced, but could not resist William Powell’s charm.
They all have, “Double Wedding”, “I Love You Again”, and “Love Crazy” all have plots that can’t possibly actually work.
And “Libeled Lady” (1936), which came out about three months before “After The Thin Man”, is another bizarre plot that can’t possibly be.
It can’t possibly work.
But the extraordinary chemistry of the cast, you just believe them.
>> AP: The fantastical plots, they’re part of Screwball Comedy.
We’re not looking for a documentary.
A little escapism is always wanted.
We talked about the sleuthing couple becoming a sub-genre of Screwball Comedy.
The Film Society has compiled a comprehensive database.
We have a lot of couples who are sleuthing.
It’s fun when you take that thread and carry it through.
You’ll see the artistic evolution of this sub-genre.
They’re all different.
They have different professions, doctors, writers, even rare booksellers; and different interpretations of the relationships between the two.
Like any artistic endeavor, it’s not a “check the boxes”. It’s not a template.
And it’s fun to see the varying degrees of success and the different interpretations.
>> RK: Detective, it’s interesting because you want to separate your detective movies into two separate cases.
Dashiell Hammett’s “The Maltese Falcon” (1941), Sam Spade is a loner.
He’s by himself, there’s the femme fatale, then the list of suspects, the murderer.
The person who was murdered is inevitably someone everybody hated, so we can have plenty of suspects.
Then we have your team up, that relationship between the two, and the contrast between the two.
Even thinking “Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson”, he is the earthy one who gets married and he’s the writer and the pragmatic one.
“Sherlock Holmes” is anti-social, aloof.
He’s on cocaine all the time.
And he’s a genius.
You have that with those two.
What “Nick and Nora Charles” created was, we can have a married couple team up, and we see that over and over again in the “Fast” movies, and “There’s Always A Woman” (1938) with Melvyn Douglas, all the way up to “McMillan & Wife” (TV series, 1971-1977).
>> AP: And “Hart to Hart” (TV series 1979-1984).
>> RK: “Hart to Hart” was very much inspired by–.
>> AP: Robert Wagner said he would only do another series if, he’d been fascinated “The Thin Man”, and said, “That’s how you can get me to sign up for another series, if it will be like “The Thin Man”.
Speaking of this movie and what distinguishes it, I have to mention the screenwriters again, because the exceptional dialogue.
It’s so witty and watching it again this evening–delightful.
>> RK: Albert Hackett and Frances Goodrich were a married couple.
I mentioned “It’s a Wonderful Life” (1946), and “The Diary of Anne Frank” (1959).
Their credits are unbelievable.
They wrote the script for “Easter Parade” (1948), “Father of the Bride” (1950), which was such an exceptional screenplay they got credit on the Steve Martin remake (1991), because they kept so much of the dialogue.
They were an extraordinary writing team.
What’s interesting is they’re mostly remembered for “Nick and Nora” and that relationship that they gave to “Nick and Nora”, but by the time they did the second movie, they were tired of it.
It was hard for them to write “Nick and Nora”.
>> AP: Even after getting an Academy Award nomination for writing.
>> RK: And “After the Thin Man” got another nomination.
They were tired.
They didn’t want to deal with, they wanted to move on.
Frances Goodrich or Albert Hackett said in an interview that he and Frances wanted to kill “Nick and Nora” at the end of this movie.
MGM wasn’t going to do that.
So they decided to try to do the next best thing by giving them a baby.
They thought, we’re giving them a baby, this will kill the series.
There’s no way they could possibly, ah no.
>> AP: They were even more beloved with the kid.
>> RK: And the two had to write a third movie, which really annoyed them.
>> AP: You talked about Elissa Landi, and that she had a career, even though she was at MGM, she was moved toward character roles, second leads, and only had a couple of films after this.
She played “Cousin Selma”.
I want to note two other Screwball Comedies she was in, “By Candlelight” (1933), director James Whale, and “Enter Madame (1935), with Cary Grant.
She was in some good pictures.
Outside the Screwball Comedy realm, probably the most famous movie she starred in was Cecil B. DeMille’s “The Sign of the Cross” (1932), which I remember for Claudette Colbert’s milk bath.🎥
Film Society of Screwball Comedy®
Edited by Aliece Pickett
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